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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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So been having some questions for our DKP method. We're going to be following a 2.5 start of raid and end of raid dkp, 5 dkp per hour on our 3 hour raids on MC and items cost a static of 30 but since we now basically have a core group finishing MC in a day instead of 2 (we're a 2 day raiding guild) is quite near and I've been asking myself how do we deal with that DKP wise, should we just start double the DKP gain per hour to deal with clearing MC in 1 day instead of 2 (so 10 per hour instead of 5)? Simple question but been scratching my head at it for a little bit now, heh.

What do you think?

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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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Personally I dont think a change is necessarily mandatory in this scenario. It depends on what youre trying to achieve as well as your raiders preferences

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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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If we do it in a day then one week of raiding would just grant them 15 dkp from 3 hours of raid (without the on-time/end of raid bonus) which won't be enough for the static price of 30, which is why I ask. We do allow min bid of 15 and allow to dip up to -15 though.

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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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Moments like these make me happy I don't have to put up with 2nd degree differential equations in order to balance inflation by regulating the DKP gain over the modified price of items relative to their drop rate, clear times and overall effectiveness in a multi-phased progressive itemization environment with what I can only assume is a semi-stable roster with shifting setups and offspec friendly for OTs at least - and still wonder whether the system is fair or not.

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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stio wrote:
4 months ago
If we do it in a day then one week of raiding would just grant them 15 dkp from 3 hours of raid (without the on-time/end of raid bonus) which won't be enough for the static price of 30, which is why I ask. We do allow min bid of 15 and allow to dip up to -15 though.
DKP is a representation of their effort. If you are in the raid for a shorter period of time, you should be rewarded for less effort because you have invested less effort. While they could argue that this discourages competent play, this is also only a temporary issue. When BWL comes out you will have your two raid nights filled with content. Remember that when you are making changes you are setting a precedent for the duration of Classic. Be decisive and make a decision that will benefit your team longterm because your job as a raid leader is to be 3 steps ahead.

If you are concerned that players wont feel rewarded adequately you could always add DKP incentives for performance. Run raid logs. If we down a boss faster than the previous week, everyone in raid gets an additional X DKP. You can always find ways to reward people for performing well without arbitrarily increasing their gain of DKP just because you arent raiding 2 days.

The bigger issue youre going to have to deal with is the longevity of your system. What are you going to do to ensure DKP rates dont skyrocket? Are you using decay? Are you decaying their DKP at the end of each week to incentivize spending or are you doing this at the end of each phase?

I have lead many guilds using a variety of DKP systems. One of my officers got together with me and we created our own for Classic and it addresses many of the traditional issues with DKP. We offer a flat rate of DKP: 10 DKP per boss kill, and Ony and Rag reward 20 DKP. We do not reward showup or hourly DKP. At the end of each raid, members who were benched get 100% of the DKP the team has earned assuming they were online during the raid and available if needed. Each item is a bid is worth a % of a players DKP. Example: Preditions blade is 70% DKP. When a preditions blade drops, it gets announced to the raid, players bid on the item by typing "bid" in raid chat. We check the current DKP on the website (updated after each boss kill) and the person who has the highest DKP at that time will win the preditions blade and pay 70% of their current DKP. This system addresses a ton of issues with DKP within the realm of Classic... I'll list some below:

-We dont have to deal with decay because players are paying a % of their total DKP (if their residual DKP builds we can simply change the % price of items in the next phase to slowly tailor the system towards blending DKP more aggresively)
-The system incentivizes spending because saving DKP ends in the player paying more for gear
-New players recruited arent 3 months behind the main raid to get gear because people are blending their DKP relatively quickly
-This system deals with loot in approximately 2-3 mins after a boss kill. Traditional DKP with closed bidding can take upwards of 10 mins per boss (adds up quickly and is awful for progression)
-When players spend a % of their DKP they can never truly burn all of their DKP which encourages players to stay because they rarely will reach 0 DKP

The overall beauty of our system is simplicity. Accounting is simple. We arent adding hours in a raid, attendance etc etc etc - flate rate of DKP for boss kills - simple. Bidding is transparent and posted directly in raid chat/website. The entire system is incredibly efficient allowing us to continue pulls while dealing with loot and ending bidding within 2-3 mins after a boss is dead. We are currently working on our own addon that will work ingame to automate the rest of our system.

For context I have lead about 4 guilds with DKP specifically and this is the best system I have ran within the context of Classic. This addresses most of the issues with a traditional DKP system. I currently lead a raiding guild that has 3 raid teams clearing all of the current content. I will say that DKP is, in my opinion, the best loot distribution system for Classic. Classic is easy. As a raid leader you need two things from your raiders to clear all of Naxx; attendance and loyalty and DKP incentivizes both, loot council does not. This is not content that requires min/maxxing every item within your raid to down cutting edge content. You need your players to feel valued and you need them to attend and DKP accomplishes that well. The primary issue with DKP is establishing how you will do decay early on and sticking with it because longterm, this will cause you massive issues if you dont stay ontop of it.

   FTHforever
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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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We are doing decay at the end of each week and planning to do decay at the end of each tier as well. And we just bid flat amount of 30 for main spec and do closed bids for off specs, as in items no one needed for main spec. We've yet to do closed bids so far, everything went for MS. And so far we haven't had more than a couple of mins give or take to deal with loot with, except for very rare exceptions.

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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stio wrote:
4 months ago
So been having some questions for our DKP method. We're going to be following a 2.5 start of raid and end of raid dkp, 5 dkp per hour on our 3 hour raids on MC and items cost a static of 30 but since we now basically have a core group finishing MC in a day instead of 2 (we're a 2 day raiding guild) is quite near and I've been asking myself how do we deal with that DKP wise, should we just start double the DKP gain per hour to deal with clearing MC in 1 day instead of 2 (so 10 per hour instead of 5)? Simple question but been scratching my head at it for a little bit now, heh.

What do you think?
You should cut MC item DKP points in half. This will solve your problems.

No. I'm not TROLLING...
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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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Stfuppercut wrote:
4 months ago
(..) We offer a flat rate of DKP: 10 DKP per boss kill, and Ony and Rag reward 20 DKP. We do not reward showup or hourly DKP. At the end of each raid, members who were benched get 100% of the DKP the team has earned assuming they were online during the raid and available if needed. Each item is a bid is worth a % of a players DKP. Example: Preditions blade is 70% DKP. When a preditions blade drops, it gets announced to the raid, players bid on the item by typing "bid" in raid chat. We check the current DKP on the website (updated after each boss kill) and the person who has the highest DKP at that time will win the preditions blade and pay 70% of their current DKP. This system addresses a ton of issues with DKP within the realm of Classic... I'll list some below:

-We dont have to deal with decay because players are paying a % of their total DKP (if their residual DKP builds we can simply change the % price of items in the next phase to slowly tailor the system towards blending DKP more aggresively)
-The system incentivizes spending because saving DKP ends in the player paying more for gear
-New players recruited arent 3 months behind the main raid to get gear because people are blending their DKP relatively quickly
-This system deals with loot in approximately 2-3 mins after a boss kill. Traditional DKP with closed bidding can take upwards of 10 mins per boss (adds up quickly and is awful for progression)
-When players spend a % of their DKP they can never truly burn all of their DKP which encourages players to stay because they rarely will reach 0 DKP

The overall beauty of our system is simplicity. Accounting is simple. We arent adding hours in a raid, attendance etc etc etc - flate rate of DKP for boss kills - simple. Bidding is transparent and posted directly in raid chat/website. The entire system is incredibly efficient allowing us to continue pulls while dealing with loot and ending bidding within 2-3 mins after a boss is dead. We are currently working on our own addon that will work ingame to automate the rest of our system. (..)
That sounds awesome man! Any plans to public the system for wider use? I'm in a DKP guild again and I think that system looks very neat, me might copy :cool:

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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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FTHforever wrote:
4 months ago
That sounds awesome man! Any plans to public the system for wider use? I'm in a DKP guild again and I think that system looks very neat, me might copy :cool:
No plans to make it public, but that would be up to the guy who is building it for the guild. From what I understand, its coming along well, but I have no ETA. We're currently getting by the old fashioned way but it will be nice if we can make the system a bit more automated.

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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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Sounds like an interesting system. I definititely see a lot of positives, but assigning a price to every single item is something I would avoid at all costs. So much potential for drama and discussions.

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4 months ago (1.13.2)
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Samaraner wrote:
4 months ago
Sounds like an interesting system. I definititely see a lot of positives, but assigning a price to every single item is something I would avoid at all costs. So much potential for drama and discussions.
I do the same with my guild. My DKP pricing list will be published for BWL long before its release. I encourage discussions and grievances before the content is released. I create a list with my senior members. I push it out to all the officers. I then select a trial group of experienced players and get them to check it out and then I publish the final copy to the guild. We encourage them to go over it with a fine-toothed comb. But by the time we have entered BWL, those grievances have been addressed and we have a final version of our pricing list.

g0bledyg00k wrote:
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Never making a single investment again until I 100% know it pays off.
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